Suffering. Group Meeting 24.03.11

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Suffering. Group Meeting 24.03.11

Postby fiona » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:24 pm

Cheltenham Group Meeting. 24th March, 2011
Archive paper: ‘Suffering’ (SW) 24th May, 1999 (Included after Meeting notes)

H.H. Physical disease certainly has its pain, just because it is physical. The pain is physical, but this pain can be multiplied and increased with the addition of the sorrow which is internal - that is, mental and emotional suffering. So one can increase the effect or decrease it. There are examples of people who, having had physical pain, did not take to sorrow; so the physical pain came and, without much effect, left them after it was due to go. (74/73)


A member of the group spoke of a young woman, one with special needs, who is presently ill in hopsital with cancer. Her condition is very serious yet she appears radiant and to be in the moment. She is surrounded by much love and has no fear.

We agreed that it is fear that brings suffering.
H.H. Fear is caused by darkness or ignorance. Darkness has no substance and need not be feared. It is only the absence of light which is known as darkness. But with the eye of the mind one can even tread into darkness without fear. With knowledge therefore, there is no fear, no hesitation. Light and darkness can be seen as divine and worldly aspects of creation. They balance each other. (89/36)


A member, who has known physical pain, reminded us that some Buddhists recommend we should ‘go into’ our pain to alleviate suffering. It is a way of dealing with fear, of observing anxiety.

Towards the end of the meeting, one of our members gave us information about his recent five day silent retreat in the Sinai desert, and how he gained much from the experience, overcoming the pain of mosquito bites and dealing with difficulties like sand storms. He said that since coming back he has noticed the complications that modern life can impose and how, in the desert, one just dealt with the basics.

H.H. The first Sri Shankara said that the pursuit of happiness or the eradication of suffering cannot be the ultimate end. The ultimate aim can only be that which is Ultimate; never changing and peaceful. Thus he showed the line of Consciousness, Bliss and Knowledge, because that is the Absolute. (64/70)

* * *
Paper 9914/P.5/200699 99/14
24th May, 1999
Paper No. 5

SUFFERING (SW)


We live today in a world of extremes. There is enormous wealth and desperate poverty. Great liberty and great suppression, great comfort and great pain and suffering. The question is often asked - Why is there so much suffering in the world when the means to alleviate it is there? or Why does God allow suffering in what we are told is a perfect creation?
Firstly, it is important to distinguish between pain and suffering.
H.H. “Pain and suffering are two different things. Pain is a bodily experience, while suffering is mental. All embodied beings must be subject to physical pain. The Atman, however sees the pleasures and pains of the body but is not subject to either. Pleasures and physical comforts are meant for those to whom worldly enjoyment is the end-all of life. A Bhakta (devotee) cares little for them. If we run after the pleasures of the physical senses, the advantage of being born human is missed. Animals and birds also eat, drink, build nests, reproduce, look after their offspring, etc. But the advantage of a human body is that you can open your inner eye and see your real Self. Birds and animals cannot do this. (72/19)

Although pain is physical and suffering experienced on the subtle level, there is a link between.

H.H. “There are two types of disease, or perhaps two types of effect of diseases. One is pain caused by physical illness, and the other is suffering like grief or sorrow which may come through the physical illness. Or this suffering may arise without a disease, because a number of people are seen to be suffering without any obvious disease of their body ( or without any obvious lack in their life, for they seem to have everything: yet sorrow does not leave them, and they live in misery.
Physical disease certainly has its pain, just because it is physical. The pain is physical, but this pain can be multiplied and increased with the addition of the sorrow which is internal - that is, mental and emotional suffering. So one can increase the effect or decrease it. There are examples of people who, having had physical pain, did not take to sorrow; so the physical pain came and, without much effect, left them after it was due to go. (74/73)

The realised men and great teachers understand man’s predicament and come into the world for the sole purpose of relieving suffering and showing the route to bliss. ‘All their efforts are directed to this goal’.
H.H. “The Realised Man sees that people are suffering, so he tries to give them true Knowledge and get them out of suffering and misery. Otherwise the common man who lives in ignorance would never rise to anything except what pleases his senses and body; he would not be able to lift his arms and find the way to spiritual knowledge if no-one tried to do anything for him.” (65/139)

Clearly true knowledge and desire for liberation are necessary and different religions have a different emphasis although the ultimate aim remains the same.

H.H. “The fundamental principles are the same all over the world. In India, there are different sects who interpret the Vedas in different ways, so one can see different Systems practising the same Vedas differently. Difference of interpretation on a large scale is the result in creation of different religions. One has to look into all of them and find the common thread and also find the point of departure.
The main theme of Christianity in life is suffering. Christians appear to think and believe that only by suffering can one develop one’s Being. In Indian Tradition suffering or pleasure are considered on one level. Just as one improves Being by facing suffering patiently, so should one improve Being by keeping a cool head in the face of pleasure. One should neither be broken by suffering, nor deluded by pleasure. One should maintain one’s equilibrium in both situations. Suffering or pleasure are not ends in themselves, but if one’s aim is correct they can lead us to Bliss and peace. Very little has been done to find the correspondence of Bible to Upanishads. H.H. hopes much more similarity will be revealed when the proper research is carried out. Two examples of the many lines of thinking in India are the followers of Vishnu and the followers of Buddhism. Buddhists aim to eradicate suffering, and Vaishnavites aim to supplement pleasure. Their systems work on these two opposing lines. The first Sri Shankara said that the pursuit of happiness or the eradication of suffering cannot be the ultimate end. The ultimate aim can only be that which is Ultimate; never changing and peaceful. Thus he showed the line of Consciousness, Bliss and Knowledge, because that is the Absolute.
(64/70)

H.H. tells us to look for happiness within rather than dwell on misfortune. ‘Come out of what you are not……’ Discrimination and non-attachment to external things seems to be the key, trying to be non judgmental and seeing the Self in all things.
Q. The Shankaracharya no doubt appreciates that I am really after the answer to a question so often asked in the West which is, Why does God allow poverty and suffering and cruelty?

H.H. “After all, what is misery? Give someone one suit of clothing or a hundred, will they be satisfied? will they not hanker for different or better ones? Happiness and misery are not caused by lack of food or clothing. They are both a product of the mind. As long as one allows oneself to be identified one can be miserable without food or with plenty of food. Who really knows that the poor, the weak, or the unsheltered are living in misery? Equally, who knows the rich are happy? As often as not they lack the zest to enjoy things they buy, or can’t digest their food, or lack health to enjoy natural surroundings. One should not judge the condition of the Atman by poverty or sickness. One should look always to the cause - what brings misery? It may be covered in silk or it may be naked. Nor should one conclude that death is ultimate answer for the relief of misery. Release from misery comes from true knowledge which takes no account of riches or poverty, sickness or health. Discrimination is the key. Through it one can see one’s own desire for things one lacks, and one can also see that those who have the things one covets are not happy. Neither happiness nor misery dwell in things, but in one’s own decision made through discrimination, that acquisition of worldly things will bring neither. Following that decision detachment comes, releasing from misery and bringing happiness. (65/59)

H.H. gives us a practical way of turning our thoughts and actions away from the limited ‘I’ towards service of the Param Atman.

H.H. “He explains the six Qualities which result in happiness or in suffering. The first is the Desire. If desire is for the happiness of Atman, then all result activities are good; if it is only for the body then all activities resulting will be wrong and lead to suffering. The second one is Anger. While you are educating someone in certain behaviour or in certain principles, then it is helpful to you and to the student as well; but if anger is simply to punish someone or lower his position or revenge yourself on him, then it is not. The third is regard for something; if you have a good regard to a saintly person, it would create love, but if you have regard to undesirable types then it will lead to tension and trouble. The fourth is the desire to accumulate things; if this desire is toward your own property, it is right; you must defend your property otherwise you can’t live in the world. But if you are doing anything to grab the property of others, it is surely wrong. The fifth is Pride. If you have Pride that Atman is great and you are looking forward to meet with Atman and you feel great, this Pride is not wrong, it helps you on your way. But if you think only that your body is great, then everything collapses and you go down. The sixth is relating things, telling things to people, giving information. If you give good information that helps others and they benefit by what you say, it is good. But if you give some information that leads to distrust, that brings trouble. He says the difference between the good man, (rather ‘clever’ in the good sense), and a fool, is this; if you give something to the good man he makes good out of it. If you give something good to the fool, he will destroy it. Here is an example; take a good piece of wood and give it to a carpenter or woodcarver; he would make a useful piece of furniture and present it in a beautiful way. Whereas a good piece of wood if given to a fool would perhaps be burnt or thrown here and there. So your cleverness lies in using these six qualities to good purpose. Nothing is bad for a good man” (62/59)

There are many examples of people to whom adversity is a reminder to constantly turn inward to the Param Atman. Examples include Joseph rejected by his family, sold into slavery yet remained positive and saved Egypt from starvation. Also the prodigal son story and possibly a modem example is Nelson Mandela. We are told that we all have different roles to play and we should play them joyfully We should not renounce suffering but bear it. If we incur a debt repay it.
This suggests responsibility for our actions but we do not have to carry the burden.
Christ said ‘Come unto me all ye who are heavily laden and I will give you rest’. Similar advice is given by H.H. who tells us to give all our burdens to the Param Atman while we should stay in the moment and act out our part in this great drama.
Q. There is no doubt that at the physical level there is a great deal of suffering throughout organic life. To my ordinary mind it is hard to reconcile this fact with the idea of universal bliss and a loving creator. Could H.H. help me over how I can think about this?

H.H. “This whole creation is the creative act of the Absolute and it is an artistic creation. It is full of various tastes. (The Sanskrit word is ‘Rasas’, there are in India ‘Nine Rasas’ like the Nine Muses in ancient Greece, the mother of whom was Mnemosyne (Memory). Literature is created in which there are many styles and these styles create different effects. These effects are appreciated by those who read the literature, see the painting or go to the theatre and see the play. If all artists produced one type of work, then people will be tired or bored, even if it was a blissful painting. There must be variety; variety is the spice of life. What people usually call misery is a part of this variety; it is one of the tastes of life. It is created so that you can enjoy the other tastes. If somebody wanted always to be happy, they ‘would get fed-up with happiness. This is the law of our lives.
The reason people get involved and try to get away from religion and spiritual activity is that they consider this misery to be real and ultimate. They find that it has no place in creativity. The tradition we have been given derives its origin from Narayan (Vishnu) himself and teaches that all creation is a play, a drama. Whenever we go into a theatre and see drama with actors performing, some may be wailing or crying, some may be beaten, some may be laughing, in reality they do not cry, none of them really feel the pain of being beaten, they are not necessarily unhappy or happy. It is all a scene being played efficiently, or inefficiently, by these actors. Once we get the concept that this whole creation is an act or a drama, then we enjoy it; we get detached and everything falls into proper perspective……..
Either you can accept it as blissful or miserable, it depends on how you place yourself in relation to this drama. If you are attached to the drama, if you think it is real, then the general picture is of misery. If you are detached, if you think it is a drama and there is a part to be played by you, then it is all blissful. Everyone in this creation is destined to die, to disintegrate one day, this is the biggest fear in the lives of all beings…………...

Seeing this picture, one can understand that the whole creation is too big and that the whole thing is nothing but a drama. We ought to accept it as a drama so that we don’t get involved too much with the miseries or denounce religion
or spiritual world. (79/118)

Q. H.H. has been most patient in answering past questions about suffering in the world but young people joining us are full of compassion for the sufferings of the innocent, such as children orphaned or injured by earthquake. How can one help them to accept this and see it as part of a perfect creation?

H.H. “Where there is light there is no fear of movement. Where there is darkness there is hesitation to move. Fear is caused by darkness or ignorance. Darkness has no substance and need not be feared. It is only the absence of light which is known as darkness. But with the eye of the mind one can even tread into darkness without fear. With knowledge therefore, there is no fear, no hesitation. Light and darkness can be seen as divine and worldly aspects of creation. They balance each other.
When the Ahamkar becomes proud of being brilliant and superior, worldly forces rise to fight simply to destroy false pride. Similarly, when worldly forces become too strong, divine forces cut them down to size. This is how the creation moves on in balance. The devastations and miseries of today are caused by the deeds of yesterday. Sometimes it is not possible to understand exact causes, but from effects one can infer causes. When unfortunate events do take place then there is the need to help those who are suffering. It is rather useless to ask why they happen, but it is better first to help the suffering people and then visualise how to organise human affairs to avoid such repetitions in the future.
The universe is perfect for one who has insight and the vision of total unity, who fears nothing and acts with great compassion whenever misery breaks out. He also organises support to prevent misery and provides alternatives and aid to alleviate suffering when it happens for some unknown reason. Youth is full of compassion. It does not want to see misery, but it does not have this vision of the perfection of the universe for this vision can be obscured by the wrong use of freedom. Some misuse freedom to cause misery whereas others use their freedom to help create a society that can meet disruptions with the least suffering. Since nothing happens without a cause and the cause is always in the past, and no one can get hold of the past to remedy to present, it is a more enlightened attitude to discover the cause and so avoid a repetition in future. If someone could freeze perfection for all time, everyone’s freedom would be denied.
Misery seen with wisdom can be used as an opportunity to do good and make a better world, but just to cry over spilt milk is an act of ignorance. Give these young people knowledge and reason; let them develop the inner eye so they will be able to transform misery and suffering into love, charity and a better civilisation. They might begin to see perfection somewhere behind the remedies effected by miseries and sufferings.” (89/36)

If we try to make every act an act of devotion to the Param Atman then this takes us out of the narrow personal attachments and can transform our lives.
H.H. “Thus, if we see differences in ‘worldly things - this is this, that is that’ -instead of seeing everything as part of our own Self, then there would be things which we like as also things which we dislike. The conflicts between these likes and dislikes lead to unhappiness.

A person who practises Bhakti, uses his speech for expressing the properties of Param Atman, and his eyes for seeing Him everywhere. He is reluctant to use his organs otherwise. In this way he is practising Bhakti everywhere, whether he is in a jungle or at his house. You are listening to this talk about the Param Atman. This is also Bhakti. But no action, by itself, is Bhakti. Cover every act with the spirit of Bhakti, and every act becomes an act of Bhakti. Thus growing crops on a field, sitting at a shop selling things, etc., and all such activities things an be converted into Bhakti if they are done with a spirit of service to the Param Atman.”

A rich man use to go to a Mahatma, but he used to talk to him about his household affairs only. The Mahatma asked him the reason, and he replied that it was so because his household people loved him very much, therefore, they were always uppermost in his mind. The Mahatma went to his house one day and gave a sewing needle to his wife. He said to her, ‘Your husband seems to be planning to take all his things with him when he goes into the next world. Tell him to carry this needle also if he can for my sake. I shall need it there for sewing my torn garments. When she told this to her husband, he understood the truth about the world belongings.

“So, you should try to hoard that which you can take with you, i.e., Bhakti, and not that which must be left here. i.e., the worldly possessions. Transfer allegiance, affection to Param Atman. This is Bhakti. Under the influence of Bhakti, everything undergoes a transformation. Poverty becomes riches, poison becomes nectar, There is pain and suffering in the world only as long as faith in Param Atman is not there.” (72/10)

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